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April 19, 2011· scvtalk.com · WordPress (SCVTalk 3.0) · Wayback capture

Assembly Bill could change COC’s class offerings

A bill working its way through the California State Assembly could substantially alter the way College of the Canyons provides some classes to students in the SCV.

The bill, AB 515, would allow community colleges like COC to “establish and maintain an extension program offering credit courses,” similar to extension programs run out of universities like UCLA.

But perhaps more important for students in the SCV, the bill would “allow community college districts to charge students for the actual costs of the course.” What’s that mean? No more $36 per unit hour fee; COC would now charge students the actual cost of the course, without state subsidization. Instead of paying $99 for a given 3 unit course, you might pay $500, or $1000, or whatever the actual cost of hosting a class at COC is.

Now don’t freak out yet: community colleges were and remain the most affordable higher education option, and, I bet, would remain so under this program. I think this is actually a very nuanced issue that deserves some attention.

On the plus side, we’ve read for years how, during this terrible recession, enrollment is booming at colleges like COC at the same time that funding is on the decline. Which means that COC can’t put as many student butts in classroom seats as it would like. Just last year, COC told The Signal that:

COC has lost $12.3 million in revenue during the 2008-09 and current fiscal years. The college expects to have more than 1,300 students that the state will not pay for, Bozman said.

“They need to get an education and we cannot afford to add any classes for them,” Bozman said.

Despite the funding hurdles, COC has maintained a class fill rate of more than 90 percent and hopes to get as many students into class seats as possible.

More than 8,600 COC students have been placed on wait lists during the current spring semester.

I could see a future in which, under AB 515, courses that are not mainstream college courses, but rather are more “civic, vocational, literacy, health, homemaking, technical, and general education” in nature could be offered by COC at an at cost rate. That way, you open up classes to the demands of the market, and those who are willing to pay the full cost of the course would have guaranteed access to them. No more wait lists. No more frustrated students.

And, philosophically, why should the state subsidize a 3 unit course on drafting, or early childhood education, or Microsoft Exchange, for instance? Isn’t our goal to graduate these students to a four year university rather than train them in some vocation? Maybe these types of courses don’t deserve subsidies in the same way that English 101, Math 101, American Literature 150, and Political Science 101 do.  By charging at cost rates for these types of courses, you free up money for the important courses that students who plan to transfer to 4 year universities need.

On the other hand, this idea sets up a troubling precedent. Who determines what should legitimately be thought of as a college-level course versus an extension-type course? And wouldn’t the college logically increase the amount of extension-type courses it offers, to the possible detriment of classic, subsidized courses? Don’t we want poorer students to have affordable access to classes in early childhood education or Information Technology? The bill says it has safeguards against these problems, but I’m skeptical.

Higher education is, in my view, a public good. We as a society benefit when people educate themselves. Community colleges, by accepting all-comers (including high school slackers like your’s truly), add tremendous value to the communities they serve and deserve large subsidies to keep them affordable. This bill would bifurcate their mission, making half the college into a privately-styled & expensive career college and the other half into a traditional, publicly-subsidized college focusing on college-level academics.

I can’t decide if that’s a good or a bad thing and I look forward to seeing this bill debated.

Assembly Bill could change COC’s class offerings

Comments (19)

  1. LindaApril 19, 2011 at 1:39 pm
    I don’t see why community colleges need to concentrate solely on preparing students for transfer to four-year institutions. College isn’t for everyone. There should be more emphasis on vocational training in high school and at the community college level. I think we have too many kids aimlessly taking “general ed classes” at community college who don’t have a clue what they are doing or where they are going and who ultimately never get a degree of any kind.
  2. JeffApril 19, 2011 at 1:48 pm
    That’s a fine position to hold (if a bit biased); the question of the day is should vocational students pay at cost to attend COC rather than enjoying the cheap $33/unit fee they pay now?
  3. LindaApril 19, 2011 at 5:57 pm
    First, I don’t understand why you think my position is biased. I am a 4-year college grad. Second, I don’t think we’ve clearly defined what an “extension” class is since you say students are currently being “subsidized” in these classes. Are these going to be actual new classes, never before offered? Or are old classes going to be “reclassified” as extension classes? The classes offered by UCLA extension are quite varied but many if not most don’t really fit my notion of what constitutes traditional “vocational” training. https://www.uclaextension.edu/fos/default.aspx Nevertheless, I don’t think it should cost vocational students more for their education than it does for those headed into 4 year programs. I believe a fairer way of going about things would be to allow each person a certain number of units at the reduced rate. If a student does not maintain a GPA of 2.0, he or she is booted out or their fees are increased to the level of “cost.” We shouldn’t be subsidizing slackers after high school. Let ‘em get a McJob and start to pay their own way. At any rate, any classes offered “at cost” would have to be priced so as to be competitive with those offered by private institutions, or there will be no upside in offering them.
  4. JeffApril 19, 2011 at 6:03 pm
    “I think we have too many kids aimlessly taking “general ed classes” at community college who don’t have a clue what they are doing or where they are going and who ultimately never get a degree of any kind.” Okay perhaps biased is too strong a word; “unsupported” applies better to your statement. Anyway, I don’t know what classifies as an extension class. Therein lies the rub, right? But if you read the description of the Assembly bill, it would seem to cover classes like the ones you linked to at UCLA.
  5. LindaApril 19, 2011 at 8:21 pm
    Here’s some info which supports my claim: Of course, not everyone at community college is looking for a degree, so measuring success is tough. But several recent studies, including one by Shulock, have tried to identify students who are seeking such benchmarks as a certificate, associate’s degree, or a transfer to a four-year school. Those studies have found that only about a quarter of such students in California succeed within six years. For blacks and Hispanics, the rates are even lower. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07/14/AR2007071401361.html
  6. NateApril 20, 2011 at 10:18 pm
    I think there should be a tiered system to help focus people. After 70 credits that price goes up or something. Base some things like financial aid on performance.
  7. Lori RivasApril 20, 2011 at 10:45 pm
    I am pretty sure that there is some tiering already going on — higher prices for those with a higher degree who are or have been working in the last 10 years, or something like that.
  8. Lori RivasApril 19, 2011 at 10:13 pm
    Why differentiate between 4-year college bound students, and vocational students? I don’t understand why there should be a difference in cost.
  9. CCApril 20, 2011 at 7:14 am
    I so agree Linda. I think in Germany, they actually start separating the College bound kids from the Vocational bound kids sometime in middle school. I don’t know why Jeff finds Vocational school so objectionable. They guy that fixed my A/C unit retired last year in his 50s after making a great living. Perhaps he is the one with the bias.
  10. JeffApril 20, 2011 at 7:24 am
    Where did I say vocational schools were objectionable? That’s a total mis-characterization of what I said and what this post is about.
  11. BertaApril 20, 2011 at 9:59 am
    Linda I very much agree with you. The students or potential students most impacted in my opinion are “minority” students many of whom need to start earning an income as soon as possible since they generally are from less affluent families and need the money simply to live or help their families. Having a reasonably priced and shorter time to complete their education and achieving a trade certificate would be of benefit to those students wanting to work in a trade but not having the luxury of not working full time straight out of high school, assuming they even graduate. We need to stop assuming that everyone can or even wants to go to college. Some just need a decent job with some stability.
  12. PetzApril 19, 2011 at 5:42 pm
    Political science classes should never be subsidized. The day has come to privitize COC to match course offerings to the skill set that society demands.
  13. Venturan (NDApril 19, 2011 at 7:58 pm
    Did someone say privatized college? Like, say… this one ?
  14. Lori RivasApril 19, 2011 at 8:38 pm
    Did you all see College, Inc., on Frontline? http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/collegeinc/ A sad state of affairs, and I cannot imagine this being a positive move.
  15. ToddApril 19, 2011 at 9:44 pm
    My personal experience in this area is quite varied. I’ve attended community colleges ( specifically COC and PCC) to supplement my 4-year degree, which I began straight out of High School. My brother, three years my junior, started at CSUN, flunked out, bounced from Valley to Pierce to University of Phoenix back to Valley and LA Mission, while he attempted to sort out what he wanted to do for a living, before ultimately settling on becoming an RN, and attended COC for their nursing program. My little sister (8 years behind me) still doesn’t know what the hell she wants to do… and after bouncing from GCC to Valley to COC to PCC (and I think even flunking out from one or two of those places…. didn’t know that was possible!) and now pays way too much in government and private loan funded degree-mill, online private Ashford University, where she thinks that she’s earning a “real degree.” Of all my friends from HS, the ones who are the most successful today (in terms of not just salary, but career stability and achievement) are the ones who went to 4 year universities. The least? Those who had the wonderful aspirations of going to a community college. Now, is that true in 100% of the cases, no. Is it enough that I can generalize it? Sure. Personally, I’m with Linda… I think too many people try to push every high school student into the 4-year university system. Its not for everyone. And I think because of that push, too many students are in the community colleges who really don’t know why they are there. Specifically, I have a real problem with COC’s admission of all the HS Students into classes. If you want to give them college classes, I’m down with that (we took them at our school in my day, they were called “AP” classes… but whatever), but make sure that they’re segregated into their own classes. I can’t tell you how annoying it was as an adult trying to acutally pay attention and learn my Spanish 101 or 102, and only hearing the giggling and note-passing that was happening from the adolecents in the room.
  16. Timothy Myers SR.April 20, 2011 at 7:55 am
    “Note passing?” Were you attending during the Eisenhower administration?
  17. MikeApril 20, 2011 at 6:33 am
    As it stands right now, community colleges fill an important role BOTH as provider of a GE curriculum for students on their way to a four-year degree and of educational programs that fall outside of the traditional disciplines offered by 4-year colleges and universities. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that. There are plenty of programs that prepare students to be more successful adults that require more than high school vocational classes and less than a BA. Better still if a student gets an AA instead of a certificate. An AA through a place like COC means a lot more than a high school diploma. I believe the rationale for this sort of bill is that community colleges are already equipped to do these sorts of programs because of their facilities, knowhow and manpower. Making a new academic discipline and running courses through a curriculum process that requires countless levels of approval can be overly burdensome. This would be a way for community colleges to respond to demand quickly. It would also further the mutually beneficial arrangement where community colleges provide advanced training in areas that are directly applicable to local businesses – but without taxpayer subsidy. Lori, I saw the Frontline special last year, and it was pretty sobering. Most of these places are scams at one level or another, but they have students because there is a demand. I’d much rather see community colleges like COC meet that demand than these scheming “universities”. I would imagine that absent the need to make a profit, CCs won’t charge as much, they’re less likely to use an aggressive and deceptive hard sell, and they would be less likely to cut corners when it comes to staffing and resources.
  18. NateApril 20, 2011 at 10:21 pm
    *Like*
  19. Timothy Myers SR.April 20, 2011 at 7:59 am
    There is also a piece, probably small, of students like our daughter who attend a four year university but like to enroll in the online GE classes at COC for interim and summer to keep up their credit velocity so they can graduate in four years.

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