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June 21, 2011· scvtalk.com · WordPress (SCVTalk 3.0) · Wayback capture

A mosque in the SCV?

By Jeff — Jeff Wilson

I think Jonathan Kraut was wrong to pre-emptively rebut all the negative things he anticipates would be said about a real mosque being built in Santa Clarita:

Finally, a Santa Clarita mosque is a good idea because this issue will draw out the bigots among us who wish to stand in the way of exercising American ideals and principals. Some of these less-informed or less-understanding individuals we will be able to identify and end re-election, re-appointment or positions of power or influence in our community.

First of all, hoping a local mosque will be built in order to strengthen one’s own political position by exposing local bigots is bad form.  Why not just invite the Klan to town, see who attends, and be done with it?

And secondly, what will the exposure of bigots in the SCV serve? There’s no proof that bigotry harms electoral chances in the SCV. Indeed, the last time a local elected official made bigoted comments, support for him seemed to grow, not diminish.

The best way to support the religious freedoms of fellow Americans is not to restrict them or treat them special in any way. Whether they are Jewish, Muslim, Jehovah’s witnesses, Christian, Catholic or Unitarian, they all ought to follow local laws and ordinances. Local Muslims are like any other religious group; they don’t deserve special consideration nor do they deserve special defense. If they have the capital to raise their own mosque and get approval through the usual channels, more power to them. No need make a big deal out of what you assume will be a big deal.

Comments (40)

  1. Mr PerezJune 21, 2011 at 1:06 pm
    Before the 300 comment Blog begins from extreme right/left, I will say in advance that there are 2 Muslim community centers already in SCV which have been around for a long time with zero issues. Most people tend to hate that which they don’t know or refuse to accept. Happens both here in the US and countries across the globe. I really don’t like debating it anymore because it saddens me having served this country for so long to see the hate coming from my fellow Americans, even some towards me.
  2. Alan FerdmanJune 21, 2011 at 4:29 pm
    Good job Mr. Perez. Every person has the right to worship, in their own way, here in the USA. Revealing there are already 2 Muslim centers in the SCV and that they are practicing both their faith and good citizenship only strengthens my belief in that philosophy. The Signal should do some fact checking before publishing columns.
  3. Timothy Myers SR.June 21, 2011 at 1:29 pm
    Jeff: On one side you will have the big Churches like Grace Baptist, the Catholic Parishes and the synagogues standing on the side of the Muslims. I can already see Pastor Hegg from Grace Baptist speaking on their behalf at the planning commission. On the other side you will have a few cockroaches that are so brain addled they don’t care what people think of them showing up with dogs and screaming about 9-11. The test of the community will be how many, through fear primarily, couch their objections in the old line suburban tropes of traffic, noise and parking.
  4. PetzJune 21, 2011 at 2:09 pm
    What Jonathan Kraut did is morning is expose himself for being a partisan bigot. I would like to see the evidence that he lives in the SCV because I have my doubts. Show me your utility bills Jonathan. He has no business serving on a Human Relations forum after his hateful article against supporters of traditional marriage in The Signal. There is no one in the SCV that I know of that would oppose the construction of a mosque in the SCV, muchless Sarah Palin or Michelle Bachmann. I would encourage local Muslims to do so in an honest effort to come out of the shadows in American society, publicly embrace our values. How about putting an entry in the 4th of July parade to introduce our residents to the idea and celebrate 100 years of women’s suffrage in CA Hopefully, they will want an exterior loudspeaker for the daily call to prayer, then the Christians can chime their bells. It is shameful for Kraut to try to educate those who he denounces so boldly about First Amendment rights. Muslims have more freedom to express themselves in a Israel and the United States. Let them build their mosque in accordance with zoning and permitting laws and process.
  5. Mr PerezJune 21, 2011 at 4:26 pm
    Once again I ask “What Values?” Arab Muslims, Christian, and Druze in Israel would disagree with your assessment on freedoms in that country. America, yes, totally agree we have freedoms here. And even I barely want to attend a 4th of July Parade lol
  6. PetzJune 22, 2011 at 4:49 am
    Profound disappointment in Perez is the only way to convey my feelings in Perez. America is an exceptional country because of the values on every coin in your pocket. Liberty-not equality of outcomes In God We Trust-America was founded on the Judeo Christian values held by the founders and expressed in the Declaration of Independence that we celebrate on the Fourth of July. E Pluribus Unum-We forge a strong country based upon our common values focusing on the individual not the group. What are your objective values Perez?
  7. Gang FangJune 22, 2011 at 6:15 am
    Petz is definitely speaking for himself when he uses “WE”, and not the majority.
  8. Mr PerezJune 22, 2011 at 11:24 am
    The point of my comment was that the values you speak of should be synonymous values for every American regardless their race, ethnicity, religion, creed, or gender. This means I can’t make it a mandatory value in this country to be a member of the Christian or Jewish belief(Judeo-Christian). I know that religious pluralism is a scary thing for some people, but not something that frightened our Forefathers.
  9. LarMccJune 21, 2011 at 5:48 pm
    I have actually been to Jonathan’s house. He is a very nice guy with his own point of view and yes he does live in the SCV. I may not always agree with him, and although maybe premature, I agree with him on this. The amount of uproar over the so-called ground zero mosque was embarrassing, IMHO. I would not want to see us cast into the national spotlight as ignoramuses. I do agree with Petz that they need to come out of the shadows more and that they need to follow the same rules as everyone else on building their mosque. So, build away I say.
  10. Mr PerezJune 21, 2011 at 9:33 pm
    “Out of the shadows?” What are we the Sith now? Can we not find better terminology to use that is better fitting? I also don’t understand why if we as a community have been in this country documented for hundreds of years, that we have to pass any form of test to be accepted. We are in every community you travel to. Working as doctors, technicians, lawyers, teachers, entertainers, soldiers, etc. It is incumbent upon all us to get to know each other in order to dispel rumors, myths, and the like. That why a large Islamic Center would be a great idea in a place like Santa Clarita. Just no loud Adhan(Call to Prayer) since I’m not even down with that.
  11. Gang FangJune 22, 2011 at 6:18 am
    I, too, think is would be a great idea. Soooooo many media driven and ridiculous misconceptions about the Muslim community. Should be a non issue.
  12. FredJune 22, 2011 at 6:32 am
    Perez writes, I also don’t understand why if we as a community have been in this country documented for hundreds of years, that we have to pass any form of test to be accepted. Hundreds of years? Muslims? I have heard you make this claim on previous occasions. Where has there been a Muslim community in the U.S. for hundreds of years? Perhaps individuals, but “communities?” Hundreds of years implies more than 2 centuries, so if I am hearing you correctly, you are saying Muslim communities existed in the colonies? 1600s and 1700s? I’d like to see some refutable documentation to this claim.
  13. FredJune 22, 2011 at 6:34 am
    Sorry, “reputable.” Whether or not it is “refutable” remains to be seen.
  14. MikeJune 22, 2011 at 7:59 am
    A quick primer, with a few additional sources, of the history of Islam in the South: http://books.google.com/books?id=yx2EarrpKGUC&lpg=PP1&dq=0865547580&pg=PA394#v=onepage&q&f=false
  15. FredJune 22, 2011 at 8:27 am
    The 500 years ago claim is extremely exaggerated. A “wave” of Islamization? Certainly there would be black slaves with Islamic backgrounds who were brought here by European slavers who got them from Arab slavers. Like I stated, there would have been individuals, or groups of individuals. But an organized Islamic community influential in the overall colonial society? No such thing existed. Probably the first real wave of Islamization is what is described as the second wave that happened in 1920s and 30s. So this is just a hundred years, not hundreds of years.
  16. MikeJune 22, 2011 at 8:42 am
    He hardly suggested “organized Islamic community influential in the overall colonial society”, but if the historians are correct that 15 to 30 percent of slaves arriving were Muslims, I think Sgt. Perez’s claim holds up. It seems that the point he is making that Muslims in America are not a new thing. Heck, I think the notion that there is currently an “organized Islamic community influential in the overall society” is debatable, even today.
  17. MikeJune 22, 2011 at 8:44 am
    If the first Muslims set foot in North America 500 years ago, than “500 years” is not an exaggeration, just a matter of arithmetic.
  18. Capt. GeneJune 22, 2011 at 5:25 pm
    Wow Mike, how cool that you provided evidence to back-up someone’s claim…any chance you will ever back up your own claim?
  19. NateJune 21, 2011 at 8:50 pm
    Would Petz also like to see Roger Gitlin’s utility bill?
  20. FredJune 22, 2011 at 8:57 am
    Mike writes, He hardly suggested “organized Islamic community influential in the overall colonial society” How are you defining “community?” I understand his claim that “we as a community” in the simplest of terms, organized groups of worshiping Muslims. One slave who can cite the Qu’ran or hired hands on Columbus’s ships who happen to be Muslim don’t qualify as a community, nor represent “waves” of Islamization as that article states. Continuing, but if the historians are correct that 15 to 30 percent of slaves arriving were Muslims … Certainly they were. They came from territories in Africa that had been overran by Muslims. The issue is whether or not they continued to practice Islam when they arrived here and if that commitment was instilled in their children and continued into the following generations of slaves. History shows that a good portion of slaves embraced some form of Christianity that was synchronized with their original pagan backgrounds. Again this isn’t a Muslim “community.” Continuing, It seems that the point he is making that Muslims in America are not a new thing. In the manner that he is suggesting “hundreds of years” then yes they are. Especially when the first really communities of Muslims arrived in the 1920s and 30s. If he means what you say, he needs to make that clarification and drop the “hundreds of years” claim. It’s just not born out with the scrutiny of the facts.
  21. Mr PerezJune 22, 2011 at 12:10 pm
    Fred, to address the point you made I won’t use a book or web site that is controlled or influenced by Muslims. I agree that using yourself to validate a point is tantamount to Congress approving their own pay raises. I went simply to Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_muslims and actually learned a few tid bits on Muslims in America that I had not know before. Yes, the majority of Muslim migration in the beginning years of this country came at the hands of African slaves. I do however take offense to your insinuation those Africans only ascribed to Islam because they were “overran by Muslims.” If this is the criteria that you use to judge the spread of a religion, then how would you describe how Christianity came to the current African-American community, by threat of death and force of the slave master? A community doesn’t have a specific number attached to it in order to be recognized as such. It could be 20, a few hundred, thousand, million, less or more. The point of a community is that you are organized. The first “official” masjids/mosques documented in the US, where anywhere from 1915 to 1934. The problem with this is that in many Muslim communities there isn’t an official structure built depending on finances and need. Often Muslims just meet at each others homes and it suffices, called a Musallah. Such was documented in the 1700′s on Kent Island in Maryland. And bottom line, to take away from the genocide that those Muslims of African heritage had to endure is wrong. They contributed to the creation and building of this nation on every level, to include it’s “values.” And to not recognize that for what it is, would be wrong. Their freedom, religion, family, and names were taken away simply because they were “property” of someone else. And then to add insult to injury, they had to assume the name and religion of their master. This is why we don’t have the strong numbers and evidence of a community from those early years. But using your criteria for when we establish how long there has been an American Muslim community, I would say the first “modern documented” immigration occurred in the mid-1800′s with Turkish and Syrian immigrants. There are smaller numbers in New York and Iowa with the Polish Muslims but I don’t have any facts on those yet. My major point was that we as Muslims have been in this country for hundreds of years. Now whether that community was organized by your definition, or fragmented, is not the point of my comment. It’s that we have been part of this country’s fabric and I will not allow the current critics to take away from the contributions made by those American Muslims. And to add to that, I am aghast at how as Muslims serving our Nation, we are judged, criticized, and looked at with suspicion by individuals who didn’t have the courage themselves to serve(not saying you). I don’t want to take a page out of Bill R’s book but I get offended when the above happens and the sacrifices made by those who love this Nation are ignored because of the actions of 19 foreign hijackers and the hate that ensues by all sides.
  22. FredJune 22, 2011 at 1:05 pm
    Perez writes, Yes, the majority of Muslim migration in the beginning years of this country came at the hands of African slaves. I never argued otherwise. The issue is the idea of “communities” that have been here in the U.S. for hundreds of years, particularly in the same way Muslim communities exist in our current day as you seem to want to insinuate. Go back and read that wiki article. It doesn’t even suggest such a notion. Continuing, I do however take offense to your insinuation those Africans only ascribed to Islam because they were “overran by Muslims.” Be offended all you want. It’s just a matter of historical record. Arab Muslims had been expatriating black Africans for the slave trade for years. continuing. If this is the criteria that you use to judge the spread of a religion, then how would you describe how Christianity came to the current African-American community, by threat of death and force of the slave master? Sadly, yes. Continuing, It could be 20, a few hundred, thousand, million, less or more. The point of a community is that you are organized. That is exactly the point, and before the mid-1800s, and I would even say after that a few decades, there weren’t “communities” of organized Muslims. Muslims are certainly documented as being here, but not thriving communities adding to the fabric of the United States for “hundreds” of years. This is pure revisionism at its worst.
  23. Mr PerezJune 22, 2011 at 2:52 pm
    But the point was that there were Muslims here helping to build this country and contributing, regardless if they had a masjid, owned a gas station, or had a collective community naming them a non-profit. Simply by contributing on the large degree that we have from the minute we arrived makes us just as much part of the fabric as it does Christians who did the same. It’s not “revisionist,” it’s REALvisionist. The true revisionist approach is not giving credit to those groups who came and contributed but may not “look” or “act” the part of the majority in charge. In fact, calling America a Judeo-Christian country is revisionist seeing that Jews in this country weren’t considered equal citizens and afforded the same liberties for much of our history. They fought for their rights and we are doing the same, within the parameters that the law allows. If you remember what I said that night, I believe that serving our Nation is one of the best ways of doing such and an honor to be able to do. I have charged EVERYONE that I speak to, reminding them of this importance especially those in my religious community.
  24. PetzJune 21, 2011 at 2:10 pm
    Petz suggests a Newhall location.
  25. Mr PerezJune 21, 2011 at 4:22 pm
    Already a masjid(mosque) in Newhall that recently moved from a small location to a former church building on 8th Street.
  26. AlpinerJune 21, 2011 at 3:13 pm
    Wow, I actually agree with Jeff on a “religious” issue.
  27. Leon WordenJune 22, 2011 at 12:05 am
    Skip through to 20:00 for Rev. Pete Falbo followed by a rare look inside our local mid-town mosque: http://www.scvtv.com/html/911scv.html
  28. Mr PerezJune 22, 2011 at 4:17 pm
    Very good video Leon, I especially liked the input by the Reverend. You looked really young here too. Kind of Phil Hartman-esque
  29. CCJune 22, 2011 at 7:15 am
    They should build it if for no other reason than to watch Frank Ferry attempt self control and turn purple holding in his objections.
  30. LarMccJune 22, 2011 at 7:35 am
    Nah, Frank is very tolerant of other’s opinions. Didn’t he call residents opposed to a commercial building being built “developmental terrorists?” I’m sure he would have no problem here.
  31. Timothy Myers SR.June 22, 2011 at 8:23 am
    Frank would not object to a mosque.
  32. PetzJune 22, 2011 at 9:07 am
    Forgive my incredulity towards Jonathan Kraut . It sure would be nice if a member of the Human Relations Forum would mention the persecuction of Christians throughout the Arab countries including the recent bombing and burning of churches through Egypt and Ethiopia. Instead he tries to guilt trip the readers with his version of the Crusades and demean local conservatives who have given their blood and treasure to stop Muslims from killing Muslims and Arabs from killing Arabs. Petz is sour on Kraut.
  33. MikeJune 22, 2011 at 9:11 am
    I’m going to wage a John Ramirez-style system exploit and give Petz a dozen thumbs up for “Petz is sour on Kraut.” Thanks for the chuckle.
  34. Mr PerezJune 22, 2011 at 12:13 pm
    Can we focus on issues happening here in America first, with Americans?
  35. Mr PerezJune 22, 2011 at 2:55 pm
    And for the record Steve, I don’t agree with the usage of the Crusades or GW Bush discussion. Let’s deal with the here and now and what is going on in America. We have to be part of the solution or the problem and I think we are all level minded and intelligent enough to do it.
  36. PetzJune 23, 2011 at 5:06 am
    Bad week for sour Kraut when the leading Muslim in the US Louis Farrakhan calls the president a murderer. Let’s no forget that the last time the Black Muslims showed up in Santa Clarita, they cost the Hart Board millions of dollars and left the district paying for a high cost Diversity Czar. We don’t need or want Jonathan Kraut in any position of leadership in the Santa Clarita Valley. http://news.peacefmonline.com/news/201106/51343.php
  37. Mr PerezJune 23, 2011 at 9:34 am
    a) The Nation of Islam and Louis Farrakhan aren’t Muslim anymore than David Koresh or the Klan are Christian b) I’m surprised you would even call him that after I explained the difference lol Farrakhan is just mad because Gaddafi is his buddy and he is getting bombed. c) There are no Black Muslims, Arab Muslims, White Muslims, etc….Just Muslims
  38. MikeJune 23, 2011 at 10:31 am
    Petz is a closet Five Percenter.
  39. Mr PerezJune 23, 2011 at 3:22 pm
    As hypocritical as it may sound, some of the original 5%ers were actually “devils” themselves lol
  40. Mr PerezJune 23, 2011 at 3:43 pm
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation_of_Islam In case you forgot…

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