Will Santa Clarita Suckers Continue to Pay Red Light Tickets?

By Timothy Myers SR. — Tim Myers

In a pretty good piece in today’s Signal Natalie Everett details views about the red light camera system in Santa Clarita in light of the decision of LA City to unplug their red light cameras.

It came to light recently that the judicial branch (LA County Superior Court) decided to exercise a pesky “check and balance” on the executive branch by failing to enforce ignored red light citations. (Something about due process; another pesky constitutional consideration.) The decision to unplug was monetary primarily; because so few “violators” paid the fines LA found it necessary to subsidize the operator of the red light cameras.

From Ms. Everett’s reporting we learn that this is not the case in Santa Clarita. Violators in the City are, in the main, suckers and 75% are paying up, providing the operator enough money to continue the contract without contributions from the City and about $50K a month in incremental revenue to the City.

The article contains quotes from Bob Kellar and Frank Ferry stating that they don’t care about the cost because it is purely a safety issue. Will this change if:

Santa Claritans wise up and stop paying the tickets like their brethren to the south; and
The City has to then chip in for continued operation.

I for one will state clearly that if I received one of these citations I would wad it up and throw it in the trash, simply because I would rather have $480 than not have $480. One month ago I would have paid it. Will the other 75% follow suit?

Comments (42)

AlpinerAugust 8, 2011 at 9:10 am

There is not a time that I go through the intersection of McBean and Newhall Ranch that I do not see the light flash on someone. I fully admit that I have contributed once to the cause myself. With that many flashes, it seems like a moneymaker for the city even if half do not pay.

MikeAugust 8, 2011 at 9:25 am

I kinda like the cameras, but it drives me crazy how the city so often gets away with selectively choosing the most favorable window to compare stats. “There were 92 broadside collisions from January 2001 to December 2003, a three-year period before the cameras were installed. From January 2007 to December 2009, there were 33 such collisions.” Why not January 2004 to December 2006?

MikeAugust 8, 2011 at 9:49 am

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ogxZxu6cjM (minor spoiler)

rnddudeAugust 8, 2011 at 10:43 am

Well, as Mark Twain once said “There are lies, there are damn lies, and then there are statistics.” Also, having the photo go off does not automatically mean a citation. All photos are reviewed by a human for legitimacy, and many are tossed out as being borderline, that is to say a good attorney likely could get it dismissed for being only a marginal infraction.

Jim FarleyAugust 8, 2011 at 9:26 am

I’ve always believed these tickets to be unfair. This site has been brought up on SCVTalk before but bears looking at again. It lists specific reasons Santa Clarita’s red light cameras are not fair. It appears the tickets could easily be challenged and the ticket overturned. http://www.highwayrobbery.net/index.htm I’m curious to know not only how many have not paid and simply ignored them, but how many have been challenged, and how many challenges have been successful. I’ve e-mailed Andrew Yi, traffic engineer, with these questions. That the city hides behind the statement that they don’t care about anything except that accidents are down shows an incredible level of arogance. They need to be concerned about the fairness to all citizens, including those ticketed that should not have been. There are other ways to reduce intersection accidents besides red light cameras. Who in the city is going to have the guts to stand up for the citizens and see the cameras removed?

rnddudeAugust 8, 2011 at 10:51 am

Trust me, I am no fan of the cameras, but I would suggest that they are NOT unfair, but actually are supremely fair. Consider that they operate 24/7, have no bias, and they cast their net equally over all percieved infractions. Those who feel that they have been ticketed in error should contest it. Unlike humans, who can lie, the photo evidence is pretty clear cut, either you violated the law, or you didn’t, or it is borderline. As per my prior post, the photos are reviewed by a person as to their court-worthiness before a citation is issued. By all means, fight the cameras use on any number of grounds, fairness is not a good one….

MikeAugust 8, 2011 at 10:55 am

I agree. I’ve had the flash go off at least 3 times on me, erroneously, but I never received a ticket in the mail.

Jim FarleyAugust 8, 2011 at 11:24 am

The overall system is unfair. Here is one example as outlined in the site noted above. The left turn pockets at the camera’d intersections have long left turn pockets and high speed limits. The length of the yellow light is too short for these conditions. When you reach “the point of no return” while making a left (The point where it is safer to proceed than to stop) there is not enough time on the yellow to be out of the intersection before it turns red. Apparently these can be easily fought and won. If some are just paying on the same “violation” and some are not it is just not fair.

AlpinerAugust 8, 2011 at 1:51 pm

Flash went off once on me, I received the ticket and paid it. Not much to contest once you see the video online of yourself.

Jim FarleyAugust 8, 2011 at 2:06 pm

Same thing happened to my Wife and she paid it to much to my chigrin. I believe a challenge would have been successful.

DubiousAugust 9, 2011 at 9:28 am

I guess you have never sat waiting at an intersection when your light is green, but the selfish people opposite you are running their red light. Whether the city should collect the money or not doesn’t concern me, what I want are people who obey the red lights and show some courtesy for those who often have to wait through an entire light cycle twice just because some fool thinks that laws are made for other people not for him or her.

PetzAugust 8, 2011 at 9:49 am

Great, Obama has melted down the world economy and you are stuck on red light tickets. Petz slams on the brakes when the light turns yellow and he does not speed. Suck it up.

spineflower2August 8, 2011 at 1:05 pm

Wow, way to bring in a complete non-sequitor! We should have some kind of award for these… the From Out Of Left Field award (FOOL-F)?

RemStarAugust 8, 2011 at 10:58 am

George Bush and the Republicans light our economic house on fire using deregulation as an accelerant. The Republicans then vote against every proposed emergency measure to stem the conflagration, maintaining a newfound belief in balanced budgets, while the fire develops into conflagration. Firefighter Obama arrives to suppress the fire and end the disaster, bringing hope and a naive belief that those who started the fire would help to extinguish the fire. However, during Obama’s valiant efforts, Congressional Republicans attempt to hamper his progress, including insane actions such as threatening to disconnect the water.

IHeartSCVAugust 8, 2011 at 1:19 pm

ACHOO!!! Please excuse me, I’m allergic to inept, tortured analogies.

Capt. GeneAugust 8, 2011 at 1:53 pm

I’ve always wondered; what’s the flavor of that Kool-Aid® anyway?

Timothy Myers SRAugust 8, 2011 at 11:14 am

Petz: This is a LOCAL blog with local news. Go on over to that OTHER blog where they cut and paste talking points.

Jim FarleyAugust 8, 2011 at 1:21 pm

This had been added to the site above since the last time I read it. It specifically address the left turn issue with the tickets I address above. The site had requested the information from the city and put a bar graph as well. If anyone thinks the city has a fair red light camera system perhaps this will dispell that thought: “The data from the 2010 bar graphs shows that 96% of all violations were for left turns, and that 74% of all violations would not have occurred if the yellow times had been 1 second longer or if there had been a 1 second grace period in effect. Flipping the numbers over, we would expect that if Santa Clarita removed that hypothetical extra second, there would be a four-fold increase in violations.”

MikeAugust 8, 2011 at 1:31 pm

Faulty logic here on a few counts. The notion that with a longer light, those violations would never occur is silly and extra second just means it’s the next driver who is making the decision to run the light. Also, they analyzed the recorded violations, not the tickets issued. Unissued tickets shouldn’t have any bearing on this discussion.

Jim FarleyAugust 8, 2011 at 1:55 pm

Huh? The logic seems very basic and sound to me. A longer yellow means fewer will be in the intersection when it turns red and therefore there will be less red light violations. Pretty straightforward. If the city added 1 second to the yellow it would not impact accidents in a negative way, but will reduce the number of violations. The fact they won’t tells me they are more concerned with getting revenue than they are in reducing accidents.

dtransAugust 8, 2011 at 4:45 pm

I got a ticket from Santa Clarita and fought it. I lost. In their evidence, they show that their yellow-light timing at all intersections with the red light cameras exceed the State minimum. This means that the yellow lights are already longer and people are still running them. As Mike says, if you keep extending the yellow light, your just pushing the decision for the next car back in line to run the red.

Jim FarleyAugust 8, 2011 at 5:34 pm

While they may exceed a State established minimum there is a clear difference between the left turn lanes at the major intersections in Santa Clarita and a normal intersection. Does the State adjust the minimum yellow light for long, double, left turn pockets with higher speed limits? I doubt it. Check out the length of the yellow first hand next time you drive through and ask yourself if it is realistic.

ToddAugust 9, 2011 at 7:34 am

Or, how about this. When you see a yellow light, instead of living dangerously and trying your damnedest to get through the intersection, slow down, show some patience and courtesy, and wait your turn. Novel concept, I’m aware. But one that has prevented me from ever getting a red-light camera ticket or ever causing an accident at a controlled intersection. So, I guess its working out pretty well then.

Jim FarleyAugust 9, 2011 at 7:51 am

Point in fact. I have never received a red light camera ticket. I teach and follow the Smith Driving System and am a true believer in its effectiveness. I know I’ve been very close to getting a left turn ticket because of everything I discussed above. Most of these tickets are to people who are driving safely and can’t get out of the intersection in time due to the short yellow. Of course those that enter 3 or 4 seconds late deserve and should get a ticket. The ones who miss it by a fraction of a sceond should not.

MikeAugust 9, 2011 at 9:21 am

Jim, it isn’t a matter of “can’t get out of the intersection in time”. A violation occurs not when a light turns red while you are in the intersection, but if it’s red when you enter. Easy to avoid.

supraAugust 8, 2011 at 8:30 pm

All left-turn yellow lights are timed the same regardless if its camera or not in Santa Clarita.

Mr PerezAugust 8, 2011 at 9:02 pm

It’s not about any time standard but more so about when you get in that intersection, the light turns yellow, and Grandma is in front of you scared to take a turn. You can’t program a light to anticipate that.

Timothy Myers SRAugust 8, 2011 at 2:22 pm

Maybe Andrew Yi is just stubborn but I had heard that the new “best practice” for avoiding to collisions was to have ALL lights at a busy intersection burn red for 1 second so that EVERYONE came to a complete stop.

dtransAugust 8, 2011 at 4:48 pm

When I was fighting my ticket, I also asked the City about all-red phase. The City says that they have an all-red phase of 1 second already plus longer yellow lights than the minimum required. I’m now always very cautious when I go through red light intersections.

Teresa ToddAugust 8, 2011 at 2:58 pm

In Illinois, the red light cameras ticket the car. Here, they ticket the driver assuming they can identify and see who was driving. That’s why I now cover my face with my hand while driving through an intersection.

Mr PerezAugust 8, 2011 at 3:28 pm

And what about those with out of state license plates?

AlpinerAugust 8, 2011 at 5:31 pm

How do you see?

TeresaToddAugust 8, 2011 at 8:13 pm

Not too well, obviously.

Mr PerezAugust 8, 2011 at 9:03 pm

Where in IL are you from Ms Todd?

TeresaToddAugust 9, 2011 at 5:58 am

I’m from Springfield, Land o’ Lincoln. My mother recently moved to Naperville, near one brother. Other brothers are in Chicago and Champaign. Family farms in Petersburg and Illiopolis. I’m making the rounds within the next few weeks.

Mr PerezAugust 10, 2011 at 12:40 am

Cool, I am from a little bitty town next to Naperville named Aurora

TeresaToddAugust 10, 2011 at 6:39 am

Aurora: Not so itty bitty anymore!

Mr PerezAugust 10, 2011 at 6:40 pm

I was being facetious about the 2nd largest city in Illinois lol. I am still able to retain my IL plates and occasionally I see some students locally with them on their cars as well. Isn’t there a really big outdoor waterpark in Springfield?

rnddudeAugust 9, 2011 at 8:08 am

Something I saw in China that is an idea worth implementing here…at major intersections, in addition to the regular lights, there was a green countdown light, which showed the remaning seconds left that the light would be green. It allowed you to accurately judge whether there would be enough time to get to, and thru, the intersection legally and safely. This could be done at a fraction of the cost of the camera system, and it would reduce accidents and illegal maneuvers to boot. But I guess that is just too logical and pragmatic….

DubiousAugust 9, 2011 at 9:33 am

Actually, the intersections with pedestrian lights that count down the seconds remaining for people to cross fulfill this function now.

rnddudeAugust 9, 2011 at 10:13 am

Dubious, similar system, but not actually for motorists. The pedestrian countdown lights usually hit zero somewhat before the driving light changes, which makes sense. Drivers generally don’t know/understand the ped lights as a tool to judge the impending light change. The concept, however, is basically the same, as you stated. In China, the driver oriented countdown light was immediately below the green light, and in some cases, it WAS the green light.

Teresa ToddAugust 11, 2011 at 8:28 am

Mr Perez, Not sure about the water park in Springfield. Other than the state capitol, old town capitol, Lincoln landmarks and a man made lake, there wasn’t a lot in the way of attractions when I moved out in 1980. I’m attending a dinner event later this month in Springfield, so I’ll find out and let you know.

AlpinerAugust 8, 2011 at 9:10 am
There is not a time that I go through the intersection of McBean and Newhall Ranch that I do not see the light flash on someone. I fully admit that I have contributed once to the cause myself. With that many flashes, it seems like a moneymaker for the city even if half do not pay.
MikeAugust 8, 2011 at 9:25 am
I kinda like the cameras, but it drives me crazy how the city so often gets away with selectively choosing the most favorable window to compare stats. “There were 92 broadside collisions from January 2001 to December 2003, a three-year period before the cameras were installed. From January 2007 to December 2009, there were 33 such collisions.” Why not January 2004 to December 2006?
MikeAugust 8, 2011 at 9:49 am
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ogxZxu6cjM (minor spoiler)
rnddudeAugust 8, 2011 at 10:43 am
Well, as Mark Twain once said “There are lies, there are damn lies, and then there are statistics.” Also, having the photo go off does not automatically mean a citation. All photos are reviewed by a human for legitimacy, and many are tossed out as being borderline, that is to say a good attorney likely could get it dismissed for being only a marginal infraction.
Jim FarleyAugust 8, 2011 at 9:26 am
I’ve always believed these tickets to be unfair. This site has been brought up on SCVTalk before but bears looking at again. It lists specific reasons Santa Clarita’s red light cameras are not fair. It appears the tickets could easily be challenged and the ticket overturned. http://www.highwayrobbery.net/index.htm I’m curious to know not only how many have not paid and simply ignored them, but how many have been challenged, and how many challenges have been successful. I’ve e-mailed Andrew Yi, traffic engineer, with these questions. That the city hides behind the statement that they don’t care about anything except that accidents are down shows an incredible level of arogance. They need to be concerned about the fairness to all citizens, including those ticketed that should not have been. There are other ways to reduce intersection accidents besides red light cameras. Who in the city is going to have the guts to stand up for the citizens and see the cameras removed?
rnddudeAugust 8, 2011 at 10:51 am
Trust me, I am no fan of the cameras, but I would suggest that they are NOT unfair, but actually are supremely fair. Consider that they operate 24/7, have no bias, and they cast their net equally over all percieved infractions. Those who feel that they have been ticketed in error should contest it. Unlike humans, who can lie, the photo evidence is pretty clear cut, either you violated the law, or you didn’t, or it is borderline. As per my prior post, the photos are reviewed by a person as to their court-worthiness before a citation is issued. By all means, fight the cameras use on any number of grounds, fairness is not a good one….
MikeAugust 8, 2011 at 10:55 am
I agree. I’ve had the flash go off at least 3 times on me, erroneously, but I never received a ticket in the mail.
Jim FarleyAugust 8, 2011 at 11:24 am
The overall system is unfair. Here is one example as outlined in the site noted above. The left turn pockets at the camera’d intersections have long left turn pockets and high speed limits. The length of the yellow light is too short for these conditions. When you reach “the point of no return” while making a left (The point where it is safer to proceed than to stop) there is not enough time on the yellow to be out of the intersection before it turns red. Apparently these can be easily fought and won. If some are just paying on the same “violation” and some are not it is just not fair.
AlpinerAugust 8, 2011 at 1:51 pm
Flash went off once on me, I received the ticket and paid it. Not much to contest once you see the video online of yourself.
Jim FarleyAugust 8, 2011 at 2:06 pm
Same thing happened to my Wife and she paid it to much to my chigrin. I believe a challenge would have been successful.
DubiousAugust 9, 2011 at 9:28 am
I guess you have never sat waiting at an intersection when your light is green, but the selfish people opposite you are running their red light. Whether the city should collect the money or not doesn’t concern me, what I want are people who obey the red lights and show some courtesy for those who often have to wait through an entire light cycle twice just because some fool thinks that laws are made for other people not for him or her.
PetzAugust 8, 2011 at 9:49 am
Great, Obama has melted down the world economy and you are stuck on red light tickets. Petz slams on the brakes when the light turns yellow and he does not speed. Suck it up.
spineflower2August 8, 2011 at 1:05 pm
Wow, way to bring in a complete non-sequitor! We should have some kind of award for these… the From Out Of Left Field award (FOOL-F)?
RemStarAugust 8, 2011 at 10:58 am
George Bush and the Republicans light our economic house on fire using deregulation as an accelerant. The Republicans then vote against every proposed emergency measure to stem the conflagration, maintaining a newfound belief in balanced budgets, while the fire develops into conflagration. Firefighter Obama arrives to suppress the fire and end the disaster, bringing hope and a naive belief that those who started the fire would help to extinguish the fire. However, during Obama’s valiant efforts, Congressional Republicans attempt to hamper his progress, including insane actions such as threatening to disconnect the water.
IHeartSCVAugust 8, 2011 at 1:19 pm
ACHOO!!! Please excuse me, I’m allergic to inept, tortured analogies.
Capt. GeneAugust 8, 2011 at 1:53 pm
I’ve always wondered; what’s the flavor of that Kool-Aid® anyway?
Timothy Myers SRAugust 8, 2011 at 11:14 am
Petz: This is a LOCAL blog with local news. Go on over to that OTHER blog where they cut and paste talking points.
Jim FarleyAugust 8, 2011 at 1:21 pm
This had been added to the site above since the last time I read it. It specifically address the left turn issue with the tickets I address above. The site had requested the information from the city and put a bar graph as well. If anyone thinks the city has a fair red light camera system perhaps this will dispell that thought: “The data from the 2010 bar graphs shows that 96% of all violations were for left turns, and that 74% of all violations would not have occurred if the yellow times had been 1 second longer or if there had been a 1 second grace period in effect. Flipping the numbers over, we would expect that if Santa Clarita removed that hypothetical extra second, there would be a four-fold increase in violations.”
MikeAugust 8, 2011 at 1:31 pm
Faulty logic here on a few counts. The notion that with a longer light, those violations would never occur is silly and extra second just means it’s the next driver who is making the decision to run the light. Also, they analyzed the recorded violations, not the tickets issued. Unissued tickets shouldn’t have any bearing on this discussion.
Jim FarleyAugust 8, 2011 at 1:55 pm
Huh? The logic seems very basic and sound to me. A longer yellow means fewer will be in the intersection when it turns red and therefore there will be less red light violations. Pretty straightforward. If the city added 1 second to the yellow it would not impact accidents in a negative way, but will reduce the number of violations. The fact they won’t tells me they are more concerned with getting revenue than they are in reducing accidents.
dtransAugust 8, 2011 at 4:45 pm
I got a ticket from Santa Clarita and fought it. I lost. In their evidence, they show that their yellow-light timing at all intersections with the red light cameras exceed the State minimum. This means that the yellow lights are already longer and people are still running them. As Mike says, if you keep extending the yellow light, your just pushing the decision for the next car back in line to run the red.
Jim FarleyAugust 8, 2011 at 5:34 pm
While they may exceed a State established minimum there is a clear difference between the left turn lanes at the major intersections in Santa Clarita and a normal intersection. Does the State adjust the minimum yellow light for long, double, left turn pockets with higher speed limits? I doubt it. Check out the length of the yellow first hand next time you drive through and ask yourself if it is realistic.
ToddAugust 9, 2011 at 7:34 am
Or, how about this. When you see a yellow light, instead of living dangerously and trying your damnedest to get through the intersection, slow down, show some patience and courtesy, and wait your turn. Novel concept, I’m aware. But one that has prevented me from ever getting a red-light camera ticket or ever causing an accident at a controlled intersection. So, I guess its working out pretty well then.
Jim FarleyAugust 9, 2011 at 7:51 am
Point in fact. I have never received a red light camera ticket. I teach and follow the Smith Driving System and am a true believer in its effectiveness. I know I’ve been very close to getting a left turn ticket because of everything I discussed above. Most of these tickets are to people who are driving safely and can’t get out of the intersection in time due to the short yellow. Of course those that enter 3 or 4 seconds late deserve and should get a ticket. The ones who miss it by a fraction of a sceond should not.
MikeAugust 9, 2011 at 9:21 am
Jim, it isn’t a matter of “can’t get out of the intersection in time”. A violation occurs not when a light turns red while you are in the intersection, but if it’s red when you enter. Easy to avoid.
supraAugust 8, 2011 at 8:30 pm
All left-turn yellow lights are timed the same regardless if its camera or not in Santa Clarita.
Mr PerezAugust 8, 2011 at 9:02 pm
It’s not about any time standard but more so about when you get in that intersection, the light turns yellow, and Grandma is in front of you scared to take a turn. You can’t program a light to anticipate that.
Timothy Myers SRAugust 8, 2011 at 2:22 pm
Maybe Andrew Yi is just stubborn but I had heard that the new “best practice” for avoiding to collisions was to have ALL lights at a busy intersection burn red for 1 second so that EVERYONE came to a complete stop.
dtransAugust 8, 2011 at 4:48 pm
When I was fighting my ticket, I also asked the City about all-red phase. The City says that they have an all-red phase of 1 second already plus longer yellow lights than the minimum required. I’m now always very cautious when I go through red light intersections.
Teresa ToddAugust 8, 2011 at 2:58 pm
In Illinois, the red light cameras ticket the car. Here, they ticket the driver assuming they can identify and see who was driving. That’s why I now cover my face with my hand while driving through an intersection.
Mr PerezAugust 8, 2011 at 3:28 pm
And what about those with out of state license plates?
AlpinerAugust 8, 2011 at 5:31 pm
How do you see?
TeresaToddAugust 8, 2011 at 8:13 pm
Not too well, obviously.
Mr PerezAugust 8, 2011 at 9:03 pm
Where in IL are you from Ms Todd?
TeresaToddAugust 9, 2011 at 5:58 am
I’m from Springfield, Land o’ Lincoln. My mother recently moved to Naperville, near one brother. Other brothers are in Chicago and Champaign. Family farms in Petersburg and Illiopolis. I’m making the rounds within the next few weeks.
Mr PerezAugust 10, 2011 at 12:40 am
Cool, I am from a little bitty town next to Naperville named Aurora
TeresaToddAugust 10, 2011 at 6:39 am
Aurora: Not so itty bitty anymore!
Mr PerezAugust 10, 2011 at 6:40 pm
I was being facetious about the 2nd largest city in Illinois lol. I am still able to retain my IL plates and occasionally I see some students locally with them on their cars as well. Isn’t there a really big outdoor waterpark in Springfield?
rnddudeAugust 9, 2011 at 8:08 am
Something I saw in China that is an idea worth implementing here…at major intersections, in addition to the regular lights, there was a green countdown light, which showed the remaning seconds left that the light would be green. It allowed you to accurately judge whether there would be enough time to get to, and thru, the intersection legally and safely. This could be done at a fraction of the cost of the camera system, and it would reduce accidents and illegal maneuvers to boot. But I guess that is just too logical and pragmatic….
DubiousAugust 9, 2011 at 9:33 am
Actually, the intersections with pedestrian lights that count down the seconds remaining for people to cross fulfill this function now.
rnddudeAugust 9, 2011 at 10:13 am
Dubious, similar system, but not actually for motorists. The pedestrian countdown lights usually hit zero somewhat before the driving light changes, which makes sense. Drivers generally don’t know/understand the ped lights as a tool to judge the impending light change. The concept, however, is basically the same, as you stated. In China, the driver oriented countdown light was immediately below the green light, and in some cases, it WAS the green light.
Teresa ToddAugust 11, 2011 at 8:28 am
Mr Perez, Not sure about the water park in Springfield. Other than the state capitol, old town capitol, Lincoln landmarks and a man made lake, there wasn’t a lot in the way of attractions when I moved out in 1980. I’m attending a dinner event later this month in Springfield, so I’ll find out and let you know.