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September 6, 2011· scvtalk.com · WordPress (SCVTalk 3.0) · Wayback capture

Ugly Signal Commenters

It’s hard not to have a negative view of the SCV when you read comments on the Signal website, which trend more John Birch Society or perhaps Ku Klux Klan than your regular, run-of-the-mill Republican. I can deal with Republicans, I was once one and I grew up with them. But I can’t deal with comments like this one, left on a story about certain SCV schools’ failure to reach the standards of the Bush-era No Child Left Behind:

Being against illegal immigration -and its cousin globalization- is one thing, but to call out Mexicans specifically and proclaim proudly that you avoid economic activities that have Mexican involvement is another thing entirely.

I mean, seriously? You avoid food that has been touched by Mexican hands? How in the world do you eat exactly?

Mexico is as much a part of the history of this section of the country as Canada is a part of the history of Maine, and England is part of the history of Maryland or New York. You are aware that this part of the country was under Spanish control round about the time the Founding Fathers were signing the Declaration of Independence, right?

A Signal reporter once told me that if I thought some of the comments on the Signal website were questionable and eyebrow raising, that I should hear the phone calls they get and read the letters they get in snail mail from regular SCV subscribers that they refuse to publish. The reporter specifically remarked on a Signal newspaper cover in which a young Latino child was photographed on A-1, above the fold, in one of those typical heart-warming, parent-friendly Signal school stories.

The letters and phone calls rolled in: “You shouldn’t put brown people on the front page!” And this was the sentiment from multiple Signal readers.

Growing up here, I got used to the sort of casual racism on display in certain parts of town. Whether it was Stevenson Ranch or Valencia people referencing “those people” on the east side of Newhall or the disgusting debate about the opening of Vallarta in the 91355, you could at least count on SCVers having some sense of shame & decorum about their views. They wouldn’t mention “Mexicans” or the “Spanish” (I kid you not) specifically, but rather cloak their views in terms of culture or economics.

But people like “edsam” show the ugliness is just below the surface.

Ugly Signal Commenters

Comments (71)

  1. Lori RivasSeptember 6, 2011 at 12:04 pm
    I heard some doozies last winter, at a public meeting about the libraries. Comments were along the lines of, “why do the Mexicans get a big, new library? Those people don’t even read the books, don’t even speak English.” I kid you not. My jaw dropped. Another time, when I was pregnant with baby #3, my two brown sons standing next to me, a neighbor — who knew my Mexican husband — ranted to me about how all the Mexicans were going to be the majority soon, to which I replied, sarcastically, as I tapped my big, pregnant belly, “well, we are doing our part.”
  2. Timothy Myers SRSeptember 6, 2011 at 12:06 pm
    I got news for Edsam. If he doesn’t eat in restaurants that employ “Mexicans” then he does not eat out in restaurants at all, and would starve since he does not understand the employee base of food processors and the agricultural industry.
  3. WalkerSeptember 6, 2011 at 5:26 pm
    Right. His whole crazy tirade was in response to my suggesting that we (society) are just as culpable for ‘the illegals’ he was complaining about as the government is. We don’t demand a reasonable guest worker program, but refuse to pay more for goods and services produced/provided entirely by US citizens (and by nature, significantly more expensive). Not surprisingly he replied with the crazy rant above. Whatev. You don’t have to be okay with our current immigration policy (or lack there of) to accept your own role in it. He was too busy being crazy, though, to accept that.
  4. Mr PerezSeptember 6, 2011 at 12:06 pm
    Wow, as a newcomer I was personally shocked at how divided this city was when I first moved here.
  5. Coastal SageSeptember 6, 2011 at 6:13 pm
    Yes Perez, my son has fond memories of the Santa Clarita Deputy Sheriffs, who would constantly stop him and question him solely because he was walking along Valencia Blvd., from COC to the Mall, during broad daylight, while committing the serious of having black hair in the wrong part of Santa Clarita. SCV’s own version of DWB: WWBH.
  6. Mr PerezSeptember 6, 2011 at 7:08 pm
    The biggest warning is when they don’t help you at certain stores or treat you like garbage.
  7. LarMccSeptember 7, 2011 at 6:41 am
    How often does this happen to you? My wife is half Mexican and the other half Japanese. Her skin is pretty dark. She has never had anything like this happen to her. There have been people that are rude to her in a store, but I think we all have experienced this. How do you know this has anything to do with your ethnicity?
  8. Timothy Myers SRSeptember 7, 2011 at 9:38 am
    You have two wives?
  9. LarMccSeptember 7, 2011 at 9:42 pm
    Depends if she has taken her meds or not.
  10. Mr PerezSeptember 7, 2011 at 10:41 am
    It has happened to my wife a few times but I blend in extremely well….looks wise that is.
  11. LarMccSeptember 7, 2011 at 9:45 pm
    I really never put much thought into it, but when I look at pictures of the two of us we are not a match ethnicity-wise. I have never had a comment or dirty look from anyone, but I never really think about it either. As I said, some people are just plain rude regardless of what color you are.
  12. Mr PerezSeptember 6, 2011 at 9:10 pm
    Hold up! You spoke to me???? I’m flabbergasted lol
  13. Leon WordenSeptember 6, 2011 at 12:22 pm
    From the Look-On-The-Bright-Side Dept.: Maybe he/she/it is hiring Guatemalans and Salvadorians instead.
  14. CCSeptember 6, 2011 at 12:26 pm
    What makes you think this person is a Republican? Sort of funny that you are calling a person to task on stereotyping, yet displaying similar traits in your blog. Obviously, the person who wrote the comment, hasn’t got a clue.
  15. LindaSeptember 6, 2011 at 12:32 pm
    I’ve always loved living in a melting pot, but a lot of people feel very uncomfortable being the “minority” when they grew up being a “majority.” Add a major recession and a housing bust to a serious illegal immigration problem and you’ve got a recipe for resentment and discord.
  16. NateSeptember 6, 2011 at 12:36 pm
    I think you just made that guys day Jeff.
  17. Phil EllisSeptember 6, 2011 at 12:38 pm
    Please don’t claim that zip code 91355 was against Vallarta. That opposition was from just a small section around the vicinity of the market, which I think also encompasses 91321.
  18. gregSeptember 6, 2011 at 12:50 pm
    Please dont say casual racism exists only in certain parts of town like Stevenson Ranch or Valencia. Let’s be honest. It exists in every nook and cranny in this Valley. I agree with you Jeff about The Signal commenters. I’ve been thinking about calling The Signal and asking them not to allow commenting because many of the comments are violating their rules they specify on their site and their not actively monitoring it. It really detracts from the articles.
  19. LarMccSeptember 6, 2011 at 10:16 pm
    It also is not unique to crazy old white guys, which I assume this edsam guy is (that’s how I always pictured him). I have heard all sorts of blatant hard core racist comments from blacks directed at everyone else and a Korean friend of mine filled me in on the whole racist attitudes that exist amongst Asians against other Asians.
  20. LarMccSeptember 6, 2011 at 10:18 pm
    I live close to there and love Vallartas. Just cooked up some bacon wrapped hot dogs for Labor Day I got from them and made ‘street dogs.’ Where else in the SCV can you find this?
  21. lvogelSeptember 6, 2011 at 1:15 pm
    Moving here from the SFV some 23 years ago, it was apparent that this valley/town had little diversity. I felt uncomfortable and wondered if perhaps we made a mistake. We should never get used to even ‘casual’ racism, and we need to start with our children. My youngest is very fortunate to be attending a college this fall with a culturally diverse student body. After visiting a campus that a friend is attending, he said he was amazed by the lack of diversity on that campus. I personally appreciate this type of letter/email, because it reminds me that there is a lesson to be taught with this ‘humans’ view points and bigotry. Racism is taught; children are not born to feel hatred towards other humans.
  22. Mr PerezSeptember 7, 2011 at 10:44 am
    Apparently 2 racist ppl didnt like your comment
  23. lvogelSeptember 7, 2011 at 12:50 pm
    Or perhaps they feel that hatred is inbred, Mr Perez? Seriously, I know many people that feel a person is just born with hatred. Perhaps there are some psychological/chemical conditions that a child is born with (I’ve known a few), but I believe that when a person ignorantly considers other humans inferior to themselves, they were taught to believe that. I’m of the thought that we as humans have more in common than not. Unfortunately, the color of ones skin or the language they speak is enough for others to feel differently.
  24. Mr PerezSeptember 7, 2011 at 9:03 pm
    There are rare occasions when a child is “born angry,” but that doesn’t necessarily translate to racism. You are right in that racism/prejudism is a learned behavior and most times taught at home or in social circles. We all have a responsibility to counter it no matter the so called accepted norm, i.e. African Americans, Japanese during WW2, Vietnamese, Jews, Irish, Italians, Catholics, Hispanic, and even today towards Muslims.
  25. LarMccSeptember 7, 2011 at 9:53 pm
    I was raised to look down on other races, especially Hispanics as we lived in Van Nuys and there were a fair number of them. I am now married to one (who you have met of course) and her family is tremendously nice. In my late teens I really started to question my mothers way of thinking and formed my own opinions. I have not spoken to my mother in years. Not because of who I married, she just is a mean and hateful person overall and I grew tired of her attitude. Life is too short to hate.
  26. Mr PerezSeptember 7, 2011 at 10:58 pm
    I’m confused, when did I meet your wife? I played football for too long and took many a head shot since I ran low center of gravity to the ground lol
  27. LarMccSeptember 8, 2011 at 8:13 am
    Nah, lvogel has met her.
  28. lvogelSeptember 8, 2011 at 12:56 pm
    LOL…yes, I know your wonderful wife, LarMcc (great reply Mr Perez!) Your comment LarMcc just solidifies my comment about us being more alike than not, regardless of our ethnicity, religion or political views. My own mother was raised by a parent very similar to your own, and vowed that she would not raise her children with those views. Instead she raised me and my two siblings purposely as minorities, in communities that many I know would feel very uncomfortable living in even for a night! Because of that, and because I knew my grandmothers bigotry, I knew what hatred looked like; I saw it from both sides and I became a parent who knew how NOT to raise my children. Still, there are many that will know only what they’ve been taught to believe and not take the time to really get to know someone with any differences, especially their neighbors.
  29. Timothy Myers SRSeptember 6, 2011 at 1:54 pm
    Obvious reaction to Master edsam: http://www.the-signal.com/section/36/article/50647/
  30. ToddSeptember 6, 2011 at 2:18 pm
    Oh yah thats effective. Signed, todd1@gmail, todd2@gmail, todd3@gmail, todd4@gmail, todd5@gmail. Get a clue Signal…
  31. Damage IncSeptember 6, 2011 at 4:03 pm
    And if it is IP based then what Todd?
  32. LindaSeptember 6, 2011 at 6:53 pm
    In that case you wouldn’t be able to post under “Damage Inc.” or “Nate.”
  33. NateSeptember 7, 2011 at 8:35 am
    Classy Berta…
  34. BertaSeptember 7, 2011 at 10:25 am
    Nate you must have missed me since you bring me into the conversation no matter who makes the comment.
  35. Mr PerezSeptember 7, 2011 at 10:59 pm
    “Playing 70′s porn theme music…boom chicka wow”
  36. ToddSeptember 7, 2011 at 8:55 am
    ipconfig/release & ipconfig/renew, reboot your router to get a new dynamicIP, change which starbucks you’re posting from, post from your smart phone, which can have one of dozens of IP addresses from it. IP banning is virtually useless anymore.
  37. Mr PerezSeptember 7, 2011 at 9:05 pm
    I thought Jeff banned my IP one night since his was the only site I couldn’t access. I found the same issue happening today and after some research realized it was a Google Chrome problem. I sincerely apologize Jeff
  38. SummitTrollSeptember 6, 2011 at 2:13 pm
    Has anyone accounted for Gitlins whereabouts?
  39. WalkerSeptember 6, 2011 at 3:41 pm
    I tried to reason with him for a while…..but in the end had to go with “You don’t have to attend every argument you’re invited to.” He has zero intentions of being reasonable or considering the bigger picture (or reality). Hmph.
  40. NateSeptember 6, 2011 at 4:05 pm
    Trolls aren’t interested in exchanging ideas… they feed on people’s annoyance and frustration.
  41. LarMccSeptember 6, 2011 at 10:19 pm
    The guys comments were never coherent or well stated. It’s no surprise he did not listen to logic.
  42. Coastal SageSeptember 6, 2011 at 3:58 pm
    Jeff, from a factual point of view, in California and Arizona the pre-Spanish conquest Native American tribes were not Aztecans from what is now Mexico. This information is detailed, at length, in linguistic/ethnographic history books available at major libraries, such as those in downtown Los Angeles, Bakersfield and at UCLA and USC. When the Spanish arrived and founded the missions in California, there was no significant northward migration, with the Spanish, of Spanish-Aztecans, let alone Aztecans. I had to learn this information while representing Chinese banks in making construction and mortgage loans to California and Arizona tribes for their casinos. As my Seneca cousins taught me, in dealing with Native Americans, it is very important to be culturally sensitive to and respectful of their histories in all business dealings. The tribe members I dealt with were very adamant about their pre-colonial histories and knew who they were, as well as who they were not. In fact, my two Apache friends are very proud of the fact that in pre-colonial days the Aztecans from what is now Mexico were afraid to enter what is now Arizona because of their presence and vigilance. California was not “Aztlan” before the Spanish arrived and it is not part of Aztlan now, from the point of view of California indigenous Native Americans. Nor were the Mexican Aztecan people, whether pure blooded or mixed, in California until the American capitalist farm owners found it to be convenient for them to migrate.
  43. NateSeptember 6, 2011 at 4:08 pm
    “important to be culturally sensitive” cockroaches.
  44. Coastal SageSeptember 6, 2011 at 5:51 pm
    Only when trying to get someone to sign on the dotted line. And I hear the cockroaches are asking the U.N. to declare them to be a country in a vote to be held on September 20, 2011. It will be interesting to see who the Obama Administration decides to alienate with its veto at the U.N., American Jews or the “international community”. I wonder what the money line in Britain is on the ultimate answer to that question.
  45. Mr PerezSeptember 6, 2011 at 9:13 pm
    Not to play on semantics but if they are in Israel wouldn’t they technically be Israeli Jews and not American Jews? And it’s funny you bring this up because some of my Muslim friends and I were talking the other day and they were remarking how much they admired the perseverance and dedication of the American Jewish community.
  46. Coastal SageSeptember 6, 2011 at 10:29 pm
    Our President need only worry about losing the votes of American Jews, who polling showed overwhelmingly supported him in his first presidential campaign. I’m sure his campaign staff is doing the math, right now, to determine whether he can afford to lose Jewish Americans’ votes by not exercising the U.S. veto power on September 20th. If his Ambassador to the U.N. uses the veto, it will show he’s worried. That’s why I’d be interested to see the odds of the exercise of the veto being given by bookmakers in London.
  47. Mr PerezSeptember 7, 2011 at 9:16 pm
    The American Jewish population historically vote Democratic regardless the saber rattling of the President in power, this is a fact. Only the younger population tend to side with the Republicans but age-wise who votes more?
  48. NateSeptember 7, 2011 at 8:37 am
    How do you say cockroach in Arabic?
  49. Mr PerezSeptember 7, 2011 at 9:07 pm
    صرصور
  50. NateSeptember 8, 2011 at 9:41 pm
    Thank you. God Damn.. صرصور LOL
  51. Phil EllisSeptember 7, 2011 at 6:20 am
    It is difficult to say with certainty where a mythical place “existed.” Aztlan has been associated with not only the U.S southwest but also Florida.
  52. IHeartSCVSeptember 6, 2011 at 4:45 pm
    Whenever anyone expresses outrageous and offensive opinions online, there’s no telling if it’s a false flag/agent provocateur/whatever-you-want-to-call-it sort of masquerade. Throw out a stupid comment to make people with more serious-minded opinions on illegal immigration or welfare or whatever look ridiculous by association. So for posters like this, I agree with Nate’s earlier comment–if they get attention, they win.
  53. NateSeptember 8, 2011 at 9:44 pm
    We have been agreeing more… I am confused. Let’s just roll with it.
  54. BertaSeptember 7, 2011 at 10:45 am
    I think ignorant folks who are just frustrated that their own government does nothing to protect the interests of the American taxpayers make many of the objectionable comments. “Mexicans” are foreign nationals holding legal documents giving them citizens rights in Mexico so they are not “undocumented”. Many of the folks called “Mexicans” are in fact not Mexicans but rather folks from many other Spanish-speaking countries, born in the USA many generations ago, or from non-Spanish speaking countries such as Armenia, Pakistan, Persia, etc. It seems as though anyone with either a good tan or speaking with an accent is a “Mexican” to some folks. Illegal immigrant Hispanics however do contribute heavily to this atmosphere of mistrust and dislike coming from legal residents because so many of the illegal immigrants in the USA currently are of Hispanic ancestry. No one, regardless of their race, ethnic background, religion, or economic situation should be permitted to ignore the laws of their host nation or be rewarded for circumventing the system in place to weed out the bad apples, criminals, loafers, drug runners, etc which is what an orderly system of legal immigration does. Reasonable Americans of Hispanic ancestry understand that their loyalty is to the USA, not Mexico, Spain, etc and respect the laws of this country and embrace the privilege of living here and contributing to the patchwork that is the American experience. We do not hold ourselves apart from America but are a part of the United States of America, legally.
  55. JeffSeptember 7, 2011 at 11:40 am
    It’s funny you mention loafers. I hardly ever see homeless Latino people. What I see are Latino people trying to sell stuff, hawking vegetables, fruit, flowers or their labor on street corners, freeway ramps, in front of AV Equipment rental and other public places, just like “edsam” noticed. In other words, they’re working, trying to scrape together a living in a hostile environment. They’re not asking for charity, they’re offering a product. In contrast, I see tons and tons of able-bodied American loafers. Panhandlers begging for money. Not even trying to sell me a simple orange or a bunch of flowers. Just asking for charity. Harp on the legal issues all you want but I refuse to condemn a man or woman who is making a stab at self-sufficiency, who is trying to succeed and make life better for his families and loved ones.
  56. LarMccSeptember 7, 2011 at 10:07 pm
    And this selling oranges, collecting cans, whatever would all be money under the table, tax-free would it not? And these same people are not using our services here like roads, medical services, schools, etc? Of course they are, and this is part of the reason why our state is broke. I don’t condemn any of them either, they are doing whatever they can to escape a bad situation in their country and make a better life for themselves. But the reality is that we cannot continue to be the refugee camp for all the countries south of the border. As for able-bodied American loafers, I have done work in subsidized housing and you have no idea how correct you are. We are all paying the housing, food, health care, education and child care costs for people that are perfectly capable of doing something besides sitting around talking on their cell phones and watching TV. This is a whole other problem.
  57. Mike MSeptember 8, 2011 at 11:02 am
    Any “mistrust and dislike” aimed at people Hispanics (or anyone who appears Hispanic) is the direct result of racism, not the fault of illegal immigrants. Anyone who believes that one brown person is the same as another is a racist by definition – that’s the way it works. Illegal immigrants aren’t “contributing to an atmosphere” – that’s the work of the same attitude that hated the Irish in the 1850s and hate all Hispanics now regardless of legal status. Try hanging out at Home Depot near the registers in the mornings and listen to the scruffy white guys in line bitching about how all “them Mexicans” have ruined everything and you’ll realize that anti-immigrant sentiment has little or nothing to do with legal status for many, many people.
  58. BertaSeptember 8, 2011 at 11:28 am
    Mike M the guys at Home Depot are grousing because their ability to make a LIVING has been affected by the number of illegals who will work in the construction industry for much less money, without a license, permits, insurance etc. Painters, drywallers, masons, plumbers, etc have all been seriously affected by illegals willing to work for a fraction of the going rates. This is a fact both during the boom times and the tough times experienced currently. I am very familiar with true racism, which has nothing to do with securing our borders, enforcing our immigration laws, folks wanting a fair playing field, the rule of law, and the same requirements and safeguards of any “guests” entering the USA no matter their country of origin. I am not a racist and believe all of the above are fair and reasonable requirements that any sovereign nation must require to protect its citizens. I have seen many good people, both American born and legal immigrants lose their livelihood, their home, etc because there have been no controls enforced on who and what trades are entering the country taking whatever available jobs there are.
  59. Mike MSeptember 9, 2011 at 6:26 am
    No, the guys I hear at Home Depot are griping because they just don’t have the hustle to get the business that immigrants do, legal or illegal. I’m a long term IATSE member so I completely understand how hard it is to compete with prevailing wage when there are less skilled laborers willing to come in and do the same job for less money – the difference is that instead of bitching about it, I go out and find more work somewhere else, or convince the people doing the hiring that I’m more valuable than the low wage alternatives. And you may notice if you read my response that I said nothing against enforcing immigration laws – I’m talking about assuming that brown skin and Spanish language means illegal. I’m perfectly aware of real racism as well – my wife is not Hispanic but her brown skin has made her both the direct and the indirect target of racism for years. She had a green card before she met me and became naturalized before we married just so nobody could argue that she was gaming the system, but that hasn’t stopped people from assuming things about her because of her pigmentation. ANYONE who associates legal status with skin color or primary language is racist. That’s the way it works. You want to enforce the border? Sure – go for it. Be sure to reform legal immigration at the same time and you won’t have to waste anywhere near the resources on border patrol that we already do since this is obviously a good country to be in. Give people useable legal alternatives and they’ll choose those over the illegal ones the vast majority of the time.
  60. BertaSeptember 9, 2011 at 10:36 am
    Mike M I have a Spanish surname, speak Spanish fluently, and tan quite well and yet no one treats me as though I am illegal alien. I do not take the jobs of legal residents by undercutting their wages; I speak English, pay my taxes, follow the laws, do not fly a foreign flag, dress like a gang banger or wanna be. Nor do I have loud parties until all hours with my drug runner corridos music blasting into my neighbors homes, allow my children to join gangs and do drugs, flip off the cops, defecate on the American flag, demand that the taxpayers provide me and all my relatives with free housing, food, medical, education, and cash besides, or engage in any of the other acts perpetrated by SOME illegals, which most Americans and other legal residents find offensive. You and I are obviously not going to agree on this issue with the possible exception of streamlining the process for legal immigration. I have said many times on this blog and elsewhere I support putting more Americans back to work in order to expedite and streamline the process for legal immigration, and to secure our borders. Some people will always prefer the easier way to do anything, including entering the USA illegally, unless they understand there really are enforced consequences/penalties for breaking the law.
  61. BertaSeptember 7, 2011 at 12:39 pm
    Jeff while there are many immigrants, both legal and illegal, who are hard working there are approximately 30 MILLION illegals in the USA many taking advantage of a social service system which rewards a lack of personal responsibility such as biological fathers who do not support their own children, and those without any initiative to pay their own way. It is plain wrong to enter any country without permission, illegally, and then expect, no demand, that the legal residents support you and your family by providing a free education, free or subsidized housing, free food, free medical care, and cash for other expenses too. It is wrong and it is not sustainable. I fully support helping OUR citizens and legal residents THROUGH A ROUGH PATCH if they are able bodied, or permanently if elderly or disabled, but not for multiple generations of “recipients” legal or illegal who will not work. The most likely reason you do not see many homeless Hispanics in the SCV is either because they wisely return to their country of original during tough times with out work, or because many share housing with friends or family. A large number of occupants in an individual residence is why we see the problems so many of our neighborhoods experience of upwards of 20 people living in a very small house or illegally converted garage and all of the other attendant parking problems, noise, etc. If you head over to the San Fernando Valley or skid row area among others, you will indeed see many homeless Hispanics. So, in summation some of us are hard working, some of us are not. Some of us believe in the rule of law, some of us believe we only need to follow whatever law is convenient. Some of us believe in individual accomplishment and responsibility, some of us believe the USA and the world owes us. Some of us are Americans or legal residents, some of us are illegal immigrants from wherever. In my opinion, we owe those in the country illegally NOTHING financially. I would not feel any differently towards President Obama’s aunt or uncle than I would if it were my own aunt or uncle. Wrong is wrong. Sponsorship of immigrants is available even to Mr. Obama.
  62. Mr PerezSeptember 7, 2011 at 9:57 pm
    How about we deport the racist hate mongerers in exchange for some hard working illegals with an opportunity for citizenship.
  63. BertaSeptember 7, 2011 at 10:47 pm
    How about we enforce our laws instead?
  64. Mr PerezSeptember 7, 2011 at 11:02 pm
    Oh that will never happen. And Jeff seriously needs to change your icon/avatar lol
  65. BertaSeptember 8, 2011 at 10:29 am
    JP perhaps that is how Jeff sees me, a big angry female pink thing with huge fangs! lol
  66. MikeSeptember 8, 2011 at 7:13 am
    Berta, welcome back and all, but when you lead with a fantasy number like 30 million, I lose interest immediately. Let’s keep the discussion on terra firma, OK?
  67. BertaSeptember 8, 2011 at 10:25 am
    Hi Mike and my hearty thanks for the welcome back. I believe my numbers are very much in the ballpark as ESTIMATES of exactly how many illegal aliens are in the country have frequently ranged from a low of 12 million to more than 30 million persons in the USA without permission. Of course, our discussion is purely academic as there is no accurate count of how many folks are here illegally precisely because they are here illegally. The census does not account for all these folks, nor does any other recognized mechanism since so many avoid detection and being “counted” while in the country illegally. One of the other benefits of LEGAL immigration is having an accurate number of who is in the country, where they are planning on living, how they will support themselves, criminal records, health status, etc. Sorry Mike, I stand by my numbers until someone can figure out a way to count people who wish to remain hidden.
  68. MikeSeptember 8, 2011 at 10:43 am
    Granted that the census is undercounting illegal immigrants to some extent, but the census pegs the foreign-born population at 38 million. You can immediately chop that number with the approximately 16 million naturalized citizens and about 12 million green card holders. I’m sure we have at least a million people uncounted, but 20 million people? Not a chance.
  69. BertaSeptember 8, 2011 at 11:01 am
    Mike while I respect your opinion I reiterate that there is no accurate count of how many are in the country illegally, so my numbers are just as plausible as yours are. Any attempted counts would also produce varying numbers depending on when taken as I know for a fact many Mexicans, Guatemalans, Hondurans, and Salvadorans return to their home countries over the Christmas/New Year’s holidays but as I said, part of the problem is that you cannot count persons unwilling to be found and included. I would like to see social service providers allowed to track how many folks in the country illegally are receiving benefits for themselves and/or their American born children. While that number would not include those who are not receiving benefits of some kind, it would still provide some real numbers to use as a baseline. The twelve million number of illegals in the country is not even close for the entire USA. All you have to do is look at the costs for supporting illegals borne by LA County taxpayers alone to understand that. I respectfully disagree on this one Mike.
  70. MikeSeptember 8, 2011 at 11:20 am
    There ought to be some basis, apart from taking Tom Tancredo’s word for it, for the 30 million estimate. Where are the numbers?
  71. BertaSeptember 8, 2011 at 11:38 am
    Mike that is precisely my question, where are the accurate numbers? I can speculate based upon the information at my disposal and you can too but there is no accurate count, since you cannot even ask about immigration status! Perhaps we will all know once President Obama’s back door amnesty kicks in and we see how many new registered Democrat voters that act produces. Until then all numbers are speculation until there is a mechanism in place for accurate counts, which there currently is it is called LEGAL immigration but it must be enforced in order to work.

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